Tuesday, March 06, 2007
Foreign Policy--The Last Two Years
We had an interesting discussion here at the center today with Marvin Kalb (Shorenstein Center), Andrew Kohut (Pew Research Center) and Robert Merry (Congressional Quarterly) on foreign policy in the last two years of the Bush Administration.
I thought it was interesting that Bob Merry rooted our current dilemmas squarely in the 1992 Somalia operation--which he said was a humanitarian mission where there was no justification made at all that any interests were at stake--but where foreign policy elites also argued that there was no reason to debate the mission. Somalia opened the door for interventions in the Balkans which in turn paved the way for Iraq.
In Iraq, Merry said, we were presented with two rationales: a rationale of necessity (WMD) and a rationale of success (making the Middle East safe for democracy)--the fallout now is that neither of these worked out.
Democrats can win by default, he said, but while they can be successful in opposition he questioned whether they have a credible foreign policy approach given the divisions in the Democratic party.
Kohut noted that there is a lot of public frustration with how foreign policy is conducted but not a good deal of guidance about what to do. The public doesn't know what it wants. I found it fascinating how he broke down polling data. That many of those who say yes to the question that we should pull troops out of Iraq as soon as possible define "as soon as possible" in very gradualist terms. Thus 54 percent say "as soon as possible" but only 16 percent define that to mean "right now this instant." Similarly, a majority of those who say we should "stay the course" also talk about assigning a deadline to the Iraq mission.
There are other contradictions. There is a real "partisan divide" in responses to questions. 47 percent of Americans believe we can succeed in Iraq but 74 percent of those described as Republicans say success is possible. Most Americans say Iran is a threat but 63 percent also don't trust Bush Administration assessments.
Kalb said the president's legacy lies in the Middle East. If he wants to change the downward trajectory he needs by 2008 to end or scale down drastically the war in Iraq, persuade people that the war in Iraq is not going to be widened to include Iran, and be able to demonstrate measurable progress on the Israeli-Palestinian front. Anything else, particularly a surge effort that does not translate into a sense that a real change has occurred for the better, won't help.
A more in-depth discussion should be up soon at National Interest online.
I thought it was interesting that Bob Merry rooted our current dilemmas squarely in the 1992 Somalia operation--which he said was a humanitarian mission where there was no justification made at all that any interests were at stake--but where foreign policy elites also argued that there was no reason to debate the mission. Somalia opened the door for interventions in the Balkans which in turn paved the way for Iraq.
In Iraq, Merry said, we were presented with two rationales: a rationale of necessity (WMD) and a rationale of success (making the Middle East safe for democracy)--the fallout now is that neither of these worked out.
Democrats can win by default, he said, but while they can be successful in opposition he questioned whether they have a credible foreign policy approach given the divisions in the Democratic party.
Kohut noted that there is a lot of public frustration with how foreign policy is conducted but not a good deal of guidance about what to do. The public doesn't know what it wants. I found it fascinating how he broke down polling data. That many of those who say yes to the question that we should pull troops out of Iraq as soon as possible define "as soon as possible" in very gradualist terms. Thus 54 percent say "as soon as possible" but only 16 percent define that to mean "right now this instant." Similarly, a majority of those who say we should "stay the course" also talk about assigning a deadline to the Iraq mission.
There are other contradictions. There is a real "partisan divide" in responses to questions. 47 percent of Americans believe we can succeed in Iraq but 74 percent of those described as Republicans say success is possible. Most Americans say Iran is a threat but 63 percent also don't trust Bush Administration assessments.
Kalb said the president's legacy lies in the Middle East. If he wants to change the downward trajectory he needs by 2008 to end or scale down drastically the war in Iraq, persuade people that the war in Iraq is not going to be widened to include Iran, and be able to demonstrate measurable progress on the Israeli-Palestinian front. Anything else, particularly a surge effort that does not translate into a sense that a real change has occurred for the better, won't help.
A more in-depth discussion should be up soon at National Interest online.
Comments:
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Mr Merry's deceptive and partisan conflation of the costly, bloody, ghoulish catastophic FAILURES of the current foriegn policy of the fascist warmongers and profiteers in the Bush government - with Clinton, Democrats, or having anything to do with, or being rooted in the Somalia mission - is disingenuous, deceptive, and patently FALSE.
First, Humanitarian missions are ALWAYS justifiable.
Rather, it is the deceptive selling of patently FALSE justifications for military engagements intent on wanton profiteering and partisan political and religious crusades, that are NEVER justifiable or warranted.
Disinformation warriors, and slime and spin miesters like Rove, the Rendon Group, Baker Botts, the complicit parrots in the socalled MSM, the fascist OSP/OSI/WHIG cabals et al, can attempt to prettify, or paint lipstick on this wretched pig, - but costly, bloody, failing, noendinsight wars occupations, and colonizations deceptively sold to the American people based on a festering litany of exaggerations, hype, and PATENT lies, and deceptively conjured and prosecuted to exclusively engorge the off sheet accounts, and advance the insane delusions of fascist warmongers and profiteers in a perverted, traitorous, treacherous, fascist government - cannot, and will never alter the truth or the factbasedrealities of the abuses, failures, and noendinsight horrorshow ongoing in Iraq for example.
Wars fought for humanitarian reasons are always justifiable.
War fought for profit and political and religious machinations are never justifiable.
Somalia was an example of an American government seeking to remedy a humanitarian crisis with military force. America did not invade and occupy Somalia. We were part of a UN coalition. The Blackhawk Down incident that provoke a hasty end to that mission was a result of poor military planning (no armor, or night vision, an arrogant misinformed appraisal of potential threats), legal constraints that prevent our military from performing their primary mission. The underlying mission itself was rooted in sound policy and leadership. There were no good options in Somalia. Our military could crush Somali militia's, but the costs in innocent lives, and American blood, were not worth the effort. So our leadership wisely, cut our losses, claimed victory, and exited.
Kosovo was an example of equally sound policy and leadership. The Clinton government forced the ouster of genocidal, ethnic cleansing, raping, pillaging, and slaughtering of innocents regime and monster equal if not more demonic than Saddam, in Milosevic with air power alone, sans the costly bloody old world invasions and occupations, and without the terrible unending costs in blood and treasure deceptively heaped on the American people.
The Bush 1 government and Europe turned a blind eye and allowed the fascist Serbian government to execute a brutal genocide through-out Yugoslavia for eight years.
It was the Clinton government against the shrieking cries of endless body bags by the republican controlled congress
America was successful in Kosovo that justifiably bombed the Serbs, and both defanged, and dethroned the monster Milosevic.
America won in Kosovo
Iran won Iraq.
The ghoulish foriegn policy of the fascist warmongers and profiteers in the Bush government is a costly, bloody, noendinsight catastrophe all Americans now and in the future must hazard, suffer, and burden.
Decades from now, American blood and treasure will still be flowing either perpetuating, or working to right the terrible wrongs of the fascist warmongers and profiteers in the Bush government.
Attempting to heap this devastating nightmare on Clinton or democrats is the hieght of dishonesty, hypocrisy, and a naked PATENT LIE!
America has never been perfect, and the sins of our leaders past and previous governments and many and sordid, - but never before in the history of this nation, has our democracy, the Constitution, and the freedoms, rights, and protections of the American people been more at risk - then is the case today under the tyranny and systemic deception of the fascist warmongers and profiteers in the Bush government.
The greatest threat to America's democracy, the Constitution, and the American people in our history - is rooted in and perpetuated by the deceptive, abusive, failing machinations and unholy designs, and fascist policies of the warmongers and profiteers in the Bush government.
With leadership like this, - who need enemies?
"Deliver us from evil!'
First, Humanitarian missions are ALWAYS justifiable.
Rather, it is the deceptive selling of patently FALSE justifications for military engagements intent on wanton profiteering and partisan political and religious crusades, that are NEVER justifiable or warranted.
Disinformation warriors, and slime and spin miesters like Rove, the Rendon Group, Baker Botts, the complicit parrots in the socalled MSM, the fascist OSP/OSI/WHIG cabals et al, can attempt to prettify, or paint lipstick on this wretched pig, - but costly, bloody, failing, noendinsight wars occupations, and colonizations deceptively sold to the American people based on a festering litany of exaggerations, hype, and PATENT lies, and deceptively conjured and prosecuted to exclusively engorge the off sheet accounts, and advance the insane delusions of fascist warmongers and profiteers in a perverted, traitorous, treacherous, fascist government - cannot, and will never alter the truth or the factbasedrealities of the abuses, failures, and noendinsight horrorshow ongoing in Iraq for example.
Wars fought for humanitarian reasons are always justifiable.
War fought for profit and political and religious machinations are never justifiable.
Somalia was an example of an American government seeking to remedy a humanitarian crisis with military force. America did not invade and occupy Somalia. We were part of a UN coalition. The Blackhawk Down incident that provoke a hasty end to that mission was a result of poor military planning (no armor, or night vision, an arrogant misinformed appraisal of potential threats), legal constraints that prevent our military from performing their primary mission. The underlying mission itself was rooted in sound policy and leadership. There were no good options in Somalia. Our military could crush Somali militia's, but the costs in innocent lives, and American blood, were not worth the effort. So our leadership wisely, cut our losses, claimed victory, and exited.
Kosovo was an example of equally sound policy and leadership. The Clinton government forced the ouster of genocidal, ethnic cleansing, raping, pillaging, and slaughtering of innocents regime and monster equal if not more demonic than Saddam, in Milosevic with air power alone, sans the costly bloody old world invasions and occupations, and without the terrible unending costs in blood and treasure deceptively heaped on the American people.
The Bush 1 government and Europe turned a blind eye and allowed the fascist Serbian government to execute a brutal genocide through-out Yugoslavia for eight years.
It was the Clinton government against the shrieking cries of endless body bags by the republican controlled congress
America was successful in Kosovo that justifiably bombed the Serbs, and both defanged, and dethroned the monster Milosevic.
America won in Kosovo
Iran won Iraq.
The ghoulish foriegn policy of the fascist warmongers and profiteers in the Bush government is a costly, bloody, noendinsight catastrophe all Americans now and in the future must hazard, suffer, and burden.
Decades from now, American blood and treasure will still be flowing either perpetuating, or working to right the terrible wrongs of the fascist warmongers and profiteers in the Bush government.
Attempting to heap this devastating nightmare on Clinton or democrats is the hieght of dishonesty, hypocrisy, and a naked PATENT LIE!
America has never been perfect, and the sins of our leaders past and previous governments and many and sordid, - but never before in the history of this nation, has our democracy, the Constitution, and the freedoms, rights, and protections of the American people been more at risk - then is the case today under the tyranny and systemic deception of the fascist warmongers and profiteers in the Bush government.
The greatest threat to America's democracy, the Constitution, and the American people in our history - is rooted in and perpetuated by the deceptive, abusive, failing machinations and unholy designs, and fascist policies of the warmongers and profiteers in the Bush government.
With leadership like this, - who need enemies?
"Deliver us from evil!'
Tony Foresta--
I'd double check your "facts" on Kosovo. You seem to have swallowed the propaganda that genocide was taking place there. Far fewer Albanians were killed by Serbs than Iraqis have been killed by Americans. The "ethnic cleansing" used as justification for the NATO operation happened after the NATO campaign started. And under NATO's watch 100,000 Serbs have been ethnically cleansed from their homes.
Oh, and by the way--the single largest act of ethnic cleansing in the Yugoslav wars--the expulsion of the Serbs of Krajna in 1995 by Croat forces--with US help.
US picked sides in the Yugoslav wars as to who would be the good guys and who would be the bad, based on their own interests. When the Croats were busy cleasning the Muslims in BOsnia and committing the worst atrocities we told the Muslims to suck it up come to Washington and give in to their demands because we didn't want the anti-Serb alliance falling apart.
Did Serbs do bad things? Yes. They don't have clean hands. But don't whitewash the crimes committed by America's allies especially the Croats and the Albanians.
Clinton lied to rally support for Kosovo in 1999 and Bush learned from him how to lie to the country to take US into Iraq.
I'd double check your "facts" on Kosovo. You seem to have swallowed the propaganda that genocide was taking place there. Far fewer Albanians were killed by Serbs than Iraqis have been killed by Americans. The "ethnic cleansing" used as justification for the NATO operation happened after the NATO campaign started. And under NATO's watch 100,000 Serbs have been ethnically cleansed from their homes.
Oh, and by the way--the single largest act of ethnic cleansing in the Yugoslav wars--the expulsion of the Serbs of Krajna in 1995 by Croat forces--with US help.
US picked sides in the Yugoslav wars as to who would be the good guys and who would be the bad, based on their own interests. When the Croats were busy cleasning the Muslims in BOsnia and committing the worst atrocities we told the Muslims to suck it up come to Washington and give in to their demands because we didn't want the anti-Serb alliance falling apart.
Did Serbs do bad things? Yes. They don't have clean hands. But don't whitewash the crimes committed by America's allies especially the Croats and the Albanians.
Clinton lied to rally support for Kosovo in 1999 and Bush learned from him how to lie to the country to take US into Iraq.
# posted by 
: 9:07 PM
: 9:07 PM
Point taken petr popovic. While I will revisit the facts of the Yugoslav wars for discussion at another date, - expulsion is not genocide, and the fact that fewer Albanians were killed by Serbs, and Iraqi's by America is cold comfort.
Secondly, Clinton did not deceive the America people with regard to justifications of our actions in Kosovo, nor did he organize fascist cabals to conjure and concoct reasons for our actions in Kosovo, nor did he or any democrat resort the cowardly, base, and pathetic treachery of sliming our fellow Americans (including those many republicans shrieking like harpies against our actions in Kosovo) for questioning or opposing the Clinton governments actions in Kosovo aimed at defanging, and decapitating the monster Milosovic, and his ghoulish militias.
Also, the fascist Milosovic and his ghoulish freakish, cowardly militias targeted children and raped women as military a tactic, - so whatever the reasons may be for the US picking who was the good guys, and who was the bad guys, - Milosevic, all the vampires in his military and any Serb that supported or defended these monsters deserve what they got.
A pox on the houses of all fascists mass murderers, rapists, and killers of children.
But, I am not interested here in debating, or even discussing further the Yugoslav wars.
Rather, my primary concern and argument is that America's obscenely abusive, radically deceptive, and catastrophically failing, costly, bloody foriegn policy over the last five years is singularly and exclusively the provenience of the fascist warmongers and profiteers in the Bush government, and has no relation to, involvment or attachment with Clinton or democrats or Somalia, or Kosovo.
Further any deceptive or distortion promoting or pretending to associate Clinton, democrats, Somalia, or Kosovo, with the fascist Bush government slaughter, piracy, and wanton profiteering in Iraq, and cataclysmic failures in Afghanistan, Iraq, and in foriegn policy in general is a PATENT LIE!
Clinton can go anywhere on earth today and be recieved as a rock star.
Bush, Cheney, and most of the fascists in the Bush government will always be loathed and will require massive military security details everywhere they travel on earth, many places here in the land of Oz (and with good reason) for brutishly perverting and betraying the core principles that formally defined America, ruthlessly shaming America, and the American people, and profiteering wantonly in and from the nefarious process.
"Deliver us from evil!"
Secondly, Clinton did not deceive the America people with regard to justifications of our actions in Kosovo, nor did he organize fascist cabals to conjure and concoct reasons for our actions in Kosovo, nor did he or any democrat resort the cowardly, base, and pathetic treachery of sliming our fellow Americans (including those many republicans shrieking like harpies against our actions in Kosovo) for questioning or opposing the Clinton governments actions in Kosovo aimed at defanging, and decapitating the monster Milosovic, and his ghoulish militias.
Also, the fascist Milosovic and his ghoulish freakish, cowardly militias targeted children and raped women as military a tactic, - so whatever the reasons may be for the US picking who was the good guys, and who was the bad guys, - Milosevic, all the vampires in his military and any Serb that supported or defended these monsters deserve what they got.
A pox on the houses of all fascists mass murderers, rapists, and killers of children.
But, I am not interested here in debating, or even discussing further the Yugoslav wars.
Rather, my primary concern and argument is that America's obscenely abusive, radically deceptive, and catastrophically failing, costly, bloody foriegn policy over the last five years is singularly and exclusively the provenience of the fascist warmongers and profiteers in the Bush government, and has no relation to, involvment or attachment with Clinton or democrats or Somalia, or Kosovo.
Further any deceptive or distortion promoting or pretending to associate Clinton, democrats, Somalia, or Kosovo, with the fascist Bush government slaughter, piracy, and wanton profiteering in Iraq, and cataclysmic failures in Afghanistan, Iraq, and in foriegn policy in general is a PATENT LIE!
Clinton can go anywhere on earth today and be recieved as a rock star.
Bush, Cheney, and most of the fascists in the Bush government will always be loathed and will require massive military security details everywhere they travel on earth, many places here in the land of Oz (and with good reason) for brutishly perverting and betraying the core principles that formally defined America, ruthlessly shaming America, and the American people, and profiteering wantonly in and from the nefarious process.
"Deliver us from evil!"
I am from Iran and I am with Petr Popovic on this. This was a Jacobin policy that trashed the principles of the Peace of Westphalia in support of Muslim Terrorists. I am sympathetic to Serbs.
Now I ask the Americans in this forum the following questions:
- If the Blacks and Hispanics of California - who are the majority population in that state - form an alliance to leave the Union can they?
Let's say they ram a referendum through. Or Mexico starts supporting the California Liberation Front.
- Do the while people have any rights to stay within the Union?
- Did the Serbs of Bosnia (one third of the population) have a right to stay within Serbia?"
Putin is correct - we the weak and small states do not have any protection under International Law from your God-like behavior in the international arena.
Now I ask the Americans in this forum the following questions:
- If the Blacks and Hispanics of California - who are the majority population in that state - form an alliance to leave the Union can they?
Let's say they ram a referendum through. Or Mexico starts supporting the California Liberation Front.
- Do the while people have any rights to stay within the Union?
- Did the Serbs of Bosnia (one third of the population) have a right to stay within Serbia?"
Putin is correct - we the weak and small states do not have any protection under International Law from your God-like behavior in the international arena.
# posted by : 6:54 AM
: 6:54 AM
Tony Foresta's second comment--as vitriolic as it may be in style--makes an important point about Republicans and Kosovo--most opposed because it was "Clinton's war."
All these Republicans who today complain about Democrats wanting to put limits on the president's power to go to war were the same ones complaining about Clinton going to Haiti Bosnia and Kosovo. It's only when it is "their" president that they want him to have unlimited authority to do things.
All these Republicans who today complain about Democrats wanting to put limits on the president's power to go to war were the same ones complaining about Clinton going to Haiti Bosnia and Kosovo. It's only when it is "their" president that they want him to have unlimited authority to do things.
# posted by : 7:06 AM
: 7:06 AM
In my more pessimistic moments, which are occurring more frequently these days, I incline to believe that Satanists are in charge of our government. What is Satan's goal for the future of humanity? First: destroy the structures of International Law that have painfully been built up over centuries of mankind's development. Second: Destroy what remains of civilization, in arts, religion, history and artifacts. Satan was particularly interested in getting a contingent of human beings to destroy and annihilate Iraq, formerly Sumer, formerly the cradle of human civilization and the legendary site of Paradise. Now Satan's burning question: can we get the Washington mob to destroy Persia as well? For Satan's aim, of course, is not only to destroy living civilization (e.g. civilized courtesies between men and women, for example) but also to destroy the MEMORY of civilization and blot it out forever. Third: Inaugurate the Reign of Total Materialism. Here, both Iraq and Yugoslavia can come into play, because both had functioning economies with nationalized resource base. This is absolutely a NO -NO from the Satan Masters of the New World order!! We must have NO ALTERNATIVE to the grinding, dehumanizing reign of money-slavery and the absolute worship of Mammon, 24/7. And absolutely no public services or education benefits! Fouth: These goals for the world have to be accomplished while the Americans enjoy their brief ascendency of Empire. Because only the Americans can be counted on to be thoroughly self-righteously stupid and therefore wholly controllable by Satan and his minions (Mammon, Moloch, Beelzebub, Behemoth, Leviathan, Ahriman, Lucifer, AntiChrist, etc et alii). (The Jews are not quite as pliable, according to Satan - they are equally self-righteous as the Americans, if not more so; only they are not stupid.) Fifth: Finally, there is one last goal, which should be pretty easy. Set the Sunnis and the Shi-ites against each other. When you've destroyed the Islamic world, Hillary Clinton et alii can then turn their attention to destroying the Catholic Church, which she has wanted to do all along. The coast is then clear for the ascendency of the Israeli-Chinese Empire of Moloch, and the U.S. role in bringing Satan's Millennium into being will be gratefully acknowledged by the legions of Mandarin Talmudists.
# posted by : 9:47 AM
: 9:47 AM
If blacks and Mexican in California started slaughtering innocent people, intentionally targeting and sniping children to demoralize the population, and systemically raping women, - than I can assure you, they would suffer the same fiery repercussions as the Serbs in Yugoslavia.
That said, unlike the fascist war mongers and profiteers in the Bush hunta commandering our government, - the majority of American do NOT support America as empire, or America imposing any for of government on any soveriegn nation.
What we all must hazard and endure now is the dismembering of America, and the perverting and betrayal of America's core principles and the structure of our democracyc by fascist warmongers and profiteers in the Bush government. This is not America. We are witness to the insidious nazification of America by fascist cabals in the Bush government perpetuating the psychotic delusions of the Pax Americana neverendingwar and empire designs, agenda, and unholy machinations.
All Americans must accept responsibility for allowing these fascist cabals to disembowel our democracy, dismantle our Constitution, and pervert and betray our core principles - but FINALLY - a majority of Americans now realize that our government is peopled with pathological liars and criminals who do not represent or advance America, or the best interests of the American people.
While I agree with Putin and your comment that week states have no protection under international law from America's Godlike behavior in the international arena - contend that this behavior is the unholy and illegal work of fascist cabals in the Bush government alone, - has nothing to do with God, - is is opposed by the majority Americans - and is a grotesque perversion and betrayal of every principle and law upon which this nation was founded.
Lastly, and tragically - your commentary caryl is far more poignant and relevant than any of us are willing admit.
That said, unlike the fascist war mongers and profiteers in the Bush hunta commandering our government, - the majority of American do NOT support America as empire, or America imposing any for of government on any soveriegn nation.
What we all must hazard and endure now is the dismembering of America, and the perverting and betrayal of America's core principles and the structure of our democracyc by fascist warmongers and profiteers in the Bush government. This is not America. We are witness to the insidious nazification of America by fascist cabals in the Bush government perpetuating the psychotic delusions of the Pax Americana neverendingwar and empire designs, agenda, and unholy machinations.
All Americans must accept responsibility for allowing these fascist cabals to disembowel our democracy, dismantle our Constitution, and pervert and betray our core principles - but FINALLY - a majority of Americans now realize that our government is peopled with pathological liars and criminals who do not represent or advance America, or the best interests of the American people.
While I agree with Putin and your comment that week states have no protection under international law from America's Godlike behavior in the international arena - contend that this behavior is the unholy and illegal work of fascist cabals in the Bush government alone, - has nothing to do with God, - is is opposed by the majority Americans - and is a grotesque perversion and betrayal of every principle and law upon which this nation was founded.
Lastly, and tragically - your commentary caryl is far more poignant and relevant than any of us are willing admit.
Tony Foresta:
I believe EU was also an accomplice in Kosovo.
The current USG is continuing with what had started under GHWB and later BC.
I do not understand why you target Bush - this is a long string that might lead you to TDR - actually.
I believe EU was also an accomplice in Kosovo.
The current USG is continuing with what had started under GHWB and later BC.
I do not understand why you target Bush - this is a long string that might lead you to TDR - actually.
# posted by : 1:22 PM
: 1:22 PM
Nik,
You got some wacky posts here. Don't know if this contributes to the type of discussion you're trying to foster at TWR. Perhaps comment moderation might be in order?
You got some wacky posts here. Don't know if this contributes to the type of discussion you're trying to foster at TWR. Perhaps comment moderation might be in order?
# posted by : 2:28 PM
: 2:28 PM
Thanks, anonymous 2:28.
I've tried to keep a light touch and not interfere with comments unless they are obscene or otherwise so inappropriate that they need to be deleted. I've seen that Steve Clemons recently also had to intervene in his blog's comments section (coincidentally, in the post which featured a piece by NI online editor Ximena Ortiz) about posters not engaging in personal spats. I'll keep an eye and see whether comment moderation may be justified in the future ...
I've tried to keep a light touch and not interfere with comments unless they are obscene or otherwise so inappropriate that they need to be deleted. I've seen that Steve Clemons recently also had to intervene in his blog's comments section (coincidentally, in the post which featured a piece by NI online editor Ximena Ortiz) about posters not engaging in personal spats. I'll keep an eye and see whether comment moderation may be justified in the future ...
I target Bush ananymous 1:22 because neither GHWB, nor BC, nor the UN ruthlessly perverted or betrayed the Constitution, America's core principles, or the American people. No government in the history of America has been more deceptive, abusive, or responsible for more catastrophic failure, and wanton profiteering than the fascist warmongers and profiteers in the Bush government.
While the post may seem whacky you ananymous 1:28, - from where I sit the truly whacky behaviour is apparent in the politorati of all stripes and flavor pretending, or imaginiing that the Bush government has any credibility, legitmacy, or is in anyway concerned with America, democracy, freedom, or the American people, -and more importantly and precisely - that the fascist warmongers and profiteers in the Bush government are not exlusively intent on marauding Iraqi oil, and profiteering wantonly from the war and occupation in Iraq and the socalled neverendingwaronterror.
Lastly, all those who are calling for suppression, or silencing of debate should re-examine the Constitution.
You may not like the delivery or the tone, - but nothing printed here comes close to the scurrilous slander and slime of Dick Cheney accusing our fellow American's who dare to raise these issues, and question, challenge, or petition this government for redress of grievances - as anti-American, unpatriotic, or giving aid and comfort to the enemy.
Look up the words fascist, warmonger, and get back to me.
Then if you dare, look up democracy, freedom, and the 1st Amendment and I challenge anyone here to defend the Bush governments behavior, designs, and machinations under any definition of these terms.
"The truth will set you free." Realists, and Americans might want to look into it.
While the post may seem whacky you ananymous 1:28, - from where I sit the truly whacky behaviour is apparent in the politorati of all stripes and flavor pretending, or imaginiing that the Bush government has any credibility, legitmacy, or is in anyway concerned with America, democracy, freedom, or the American people, -and more importantly and precisely - that the fascist warmongers and profiteers in the Bush government are not exlusively intent on marauding Iraqi oil, and profiteering wantonly from the war and occupation in Iraq and the socalled neverendingwaronterror.
Lastly, all those who are calling for suppression, or silencing of debate should re-examine the Constitution.
You may not like the delivery or the tone, - but nothing printed here comes close to the scurrilous slander and slime of Dick Cheney accusing our fellow American's who dare to raise these issues, and question, challenge, or petition this government for redress of grievances - as anti-American, unpatriotic, or giving aid and comfort to the enemy.
Look up the words fascist, warmonger, and get back to me.
Then if you dare, look up democracy, freedom, and the 1st Amendment and I challenge anyone here to defend the Bush governments behavior, designs, and machinations under any definition of these terms.
"The truth will set you free." Realists, and Americans might want to look into it.
Tony Foresta:
I still think that you are over-reacting. Bush has not done anything that LBJ had not - and US came closer to tyranny at that time.
I also think that you are blaming Bush for not being successful in Iraq - like many other commentators of various stripes.
The way I see it, significant numbers of Americans are convinced that US has legitimate interests all over the world. They have accepted this as a core belief.
I think that until and unless they are disabused of this notion that US has legitimate reasons abroad - including the Moon - by the force of events, we will continue to see things like the Iraq War in the future - regardless of who is in power in the White House.
I personally do not object to your message but rather to its delivery - I have to wade through a lot of repetitive & cliché statements to get to the gist of your remarks. I think some brevity would be a good idea.
I still think that you are over-reacting. Bush has not done anything that LBJ had not - and US came closer to tyranny at that time.
I also think that you are blaming Bush for not being successful in Iraq - like many other commentators of various stripes.
The way I see it, significant numbers of Americans are convinced that US has legitimate interests all over the world. They have accepted this as a core belief.
I think that until and unless they are disabused of this notion that US has legitimate reasons abroad - including the Moon - by the force of events, we will continue to see things like the Iraq War in the future - regardless of who is in power in the White House.
I personally do not object to your message but rather to its delivery - I have to wade through a lot of repetitive & cliché statements to get to the gist of your remarks. I think some brevity would be a good idea.
# posted by : 6:22 AM
: 6:22 AM
Point taken ananymous 6:22am. The issue that most concerns me, and many in my circles is how anyone can defend the indefensible, excuse the inexcusable, or justify the unjustifiable behaviour, policy, and machinations of the Bush government.
I ask you in good faith and the spirit of honest debate, what good thing has the Bush government done for working class or poor American? Name one good thing?
LBJ, did not dismiss due process, habeaus corpus, or the right of the people to petition the government for redress of grievances, the rule of law, the laws of the land, or refer to the Constitution as "just a goddamn piece of paper."
I also question what tyranny you describe under LBJ, and how it is possible you ignore the tyrannical fascist machinations of the Bush government at home and abroad.
How do you ignore the Bush government's predatory imperialism?
How do you defend the wanton profiteering?
How do you close your eyes to the obscene abuses?
How do you excuse the radical deceptions?
How do you apologize for an adminstration intentinally mangling and dismembering the Constitution, perverting and betraying the core principles that formally defined our democracy, operating above, beyond, outside, and in total disdain of the rule of law repeatedly and incessently, a both responsible and accountable for a festering legacy of costly, bloody, noendinsight catastrophic FAILURES at home and abroad?
How is it possible that anyone would willingly support the Bush government in any way? What could anyone possible hold as a worthy reason or justification for supporting the Bush government?
I am mystified and alarmed.
Finally, past abuses and sins are irrelevent, Johnson and Kennedy are dead, Clinton is no longer in power, so the feeble argument that this or that happened in the past is moot and hollow. Rather it is the present and the future my child will inherit that concerns me, and from my pedestrian perspective, - the greatest threat to our democracy, and the rights freedoms, protections, security, and prosperity of American - are the fascist warmongers and profiteers in the Bush government.
I ask you in good faith and the spirit of honest debate, what good thing has the Bush government done for working class or poor American? Name one good thing?
LBJ, did not dismiss due process, habeaus corpus, or the right of the people to petition the government for redress of grievances, the rule of law, the laws of the land, or refer to the Constitution as "just a goddamn piece of paper."
I also question what tyranny you describe under LBJ, and how it is possible you ignore the tyrannical fascist machinations of the Bush government at home and abroad.
How do you ignore the Bush government's predatory imperialism?
How do you defend the wanton profiteering?
How do you close your eyes to the obscene abuses?
How do you excuse the radical deceptions?
How do you apologize for an adminstration intentinally mangling and dismembering the Constitution, perverting and betraying the core principles that formally defined our democracy, operating above, beyond, outside, and in total disdain of the rule of law repeatedly and incessently, a both responsible and accountable for a festering legacy of costly, bloody, noendinsight catastrophic FAILURES at home and abroad?
How is it possible that anyone would willingly support the Bush government in any way? What could anyone possible hold as a worthy reason or justification for supporting the Bush government?
I am mystified and alarmed.
Finally, past abuses and sins are irrelevent, Johnson and Kennedy are dead, Clinton is no longer in power, so the feeble argument that this or that happened in the past is moot and hollow. Rather it is the present and the future my child will inherit that concerns me, and from my pedestrian perspective, - the greatest threat to our democracy, and the rights freedoms, protections, security, and prosperity of American - are the fascist warmongers and profiteers in the Bush government.
TonyForesta:
Man, you'd better calm down and take a deep breath! The way yu are going you are going to keel over and die of a pre-mature heart attack.
I think you and your circle of friends and associates are unjustifiably picking on Bush. The imperialism, aggression, etc. has been part and parcel of US history since the first settlements back in 1600s.
I think for several centuries these wars of aggression that have been waged by the European settlers and later by US have been enormously profitable; the Indian Wars of 1700s, the War of Independence, the India Wars of 1800s, the War against Mexico, The War against Spain, WWI (lost opportunity for US to profit) and WWII.
I think that string of profitable wars came to an end with the Korean War but the lessons of the war has been absorbed by US polity on the whole.
George Bush and his administration have only emphasized what has already existed in the body-politic and during previous administrations.
How can I put it to you? US population is fond of war because there is no country (except Russia) that can resist them. They think they can win by which, I think that they mean they can kill others with impunity. This is of course an infantile attitude giving no thought to the shape of the peace to come.
As "what good thing has the Bush government done for working class or poor American" I think that US has been in relative economic decline since JFK days - when John Deer laid off its workers - 40 years ago.
Of course, one could argue that a Gore Admin. would not have gone into Iraq or aggravate the situation in Palestine the way the current administrations has done.
Man, you'd better calm down and take a deep breath! The way yu are going you are going to keel over and die of a pre-mature heart attack.
I think you and your circle of friends and associates are unjustifiably picking on Bush. The imperialism, aggression, etc. has been part and parcel of US history since the first settlements back in 1600s.
I think for several centuries these wars of aggression that have been waged by the European settlers and later by US have been enormously profitable; the Indian Wars of 1700s, the War of Independence, the India Wars of 1800s, the War against Mexico, The War against Spain, WWI (lost opportunity for US to profit) and WWII.
I think that string of profitable wars came to an end with the Korean War but the lessons of the war has been absorbed by US polity on the whole.
George Bush and his administration have only emphasized what has already existed in the body-politic and during previous administrations.
How can I put it to you? US population is fond of war because there is no country (except Russia) that can resist them. They think they can win by which, I think that they mean they can kill others with impunity. This is of course an infantile attitude giving no thought to the shape of the peace to come.
As "what good thing has the Bush government done for working class or poor American" I think that US has been in relative economic decline since JFK days - when John Deer laid off its workers - 40 years ago.
Of course, one could argue that a Gore Admin. would not have gone into Iraq or aggravate the situation in Palestine the way the current administrations has done.
# posted by : 1:59 PM
: 1:59 PM
I apologize for this double posting: I did not complete my statement.
TonyForesta:
Man, you'd better calm down and take a deep breath! The way yu are going you are going to keel over and die of a pre-mature heart attack.
I think you and your circle of friends and associates are unjustifiably picking on Bush. The imperialism, aggression, etc. has been part and parcel of US history since the first settlements back in 1600s.
I think for several centuries these wars of aggression that have been waged by the European settlers and later by US have been enormously profitable; the Indian Wars of 1700s, the War of Independence, the India Wars of 1800s, the War against Mexico, The War against Spain, WWI (lost opportunity for US to profit) and WWII.
I think that string of profitable wars came to an end with the Korean War but the lessons of the war has not been absorbed by US polity on the whole.
George Bush and his administration have only emphasized what has already existed in the body-politic and during previous administrations.
How can I put it to you? US population is fond of war because there is no country (except Russia) that can resist them. They think they can win by which, I think that they mean they can kill others with impunity. This is of course an infantile attitude giving no thought to the shape of the peace to come.
As "what good thing has the Bush government done for working class or poor American" I think that US has been in relative economic decline since JFK days - when John Deer laid off its workers - 40 years ago.
Of course, one could argue that a Gore Admin. would not have gone into Iraq or aggravate the situation in Palestine the way the current administrations has done.
My aim is not to defend this administration per se; rather to point out that this administration is not unique in its blunders, law-breakings, etc. Certainly a "C" student should not become the President of any country, let alone US.
But you and your circle of friends need to reach out to the public at large and try to enlighten them that no advanced industrialized country can afford to be a great military power, a great economic power, and have a social safety net at the same time.
I think that would be more useful than calling the current USG names.
TonyForesta:
Man, you'd better calm down and take a deep breath! The way yu are going you are going to keel over and die of a pre-mature heart attack.
I think you and your circle of friends and associates are unjustifiably picking on Bush. The imperialism, aggression, etc. has been part and parcel of US history since the first settlements back in 1600s.
I think for several centuries these wars of aggression that have been waged by the European settlers and later by US have been enormously profitable; the Indian Wars of 1700s, the War of Independence, the India Wars of 1800s, the War against Mexico, The War against Spain, WWI (lost opportunity for US to profit) and WWII.
I think that string of profitable wars came to an end with the Korean War but the lessons of the war has not been absorbed by US polity on the whole.
George Bush and his administration have only emphasized what has already existed in the body-politic and during previous administrations.
How can I put it to you? US population is fond of war because there is no country (except Russia) that can resist them. They think they can win by which, I think that they mean they can kill others with impunity. This is of course an infantile attitude giving no thought to the shape of the peace to come.
As "what good thing has the Bush government done for working class or poor American" I think that US has been in relative economic decline since JFK days - when John Deer laid off its workers - 40 years ago.
Of course, one could argue that a Gore Admin. would not have gone into Iraq or aggravate the situation in Palestine the way the current administrations has done.
My aim is not to defend this administration per se; rather to point out that this administration is not unique in its blunders, law-breakings, etc. Certainly a "C" student should not become the President of any country, let alone US.
But you and your circle of friends need to reach out to the public at large and try to enlighten them that no advanced industrialized country can afford to be a great military power, a great economic power, and have a social safety net at the same time.
I think that would be more useful than calling the current USG names.
# posted by : 2:02 PM
: 2:02 PM
I feel sympathy with Tony. He has some passion and feels moral outrage at what has happened to this nation. Tony is focussing on what is distinct and particular about the Bush Admin. and this distinction is important to make.
Evils have always existed. What is new about our period is the degradation of our cultural life and especially the shame of the conventional media. It has abandoned the task of forging a consensus of the citizenry to tout the consensus of the Government.
Sadly, the citizen has no partisan any longer.
Who speaks the word to challenge Might= Right or the idea that Those with the Most Money (media exposure, Washington influence, etc)always win? By the very nature of the case, only those with Money and Power are even heard.
The point is not that injustice hasn't always existed. But only in our time has injustice existed so flagrantly without any other constraining force.
Evils have always existed. What is new about our period is the degradation of our cultural life and especially the shame of the conventional media. It has abandoned the task of forging a consensus of the citizenry to tout the consensus of the Government.
Sadly, the citizen has no partisan any longer.
Who speaks the word to challenge Might= Right or the idea that Those with the Most Money (media exposure, Washington influence, etc)always win? By the very nature of the case, only those with Money and Power are even heard.
The point is not that injustice hasn't always existed. But only in our time has injustice existed so flagrantly without any other constraining force.
# posted by : 5:23 PM
: 5:23 PM
caryl:
But this is a site dedicated to Foreign Policy and not domestic policy. The issues discussed on this site would not have been affected much by the government structure or form - a site like this could exist equally well in China, Vietnam, or Russia.
But this is a site dedicated to Foreign Policy and not domestic policy. The issues discussed on this site would not have been affected much by the government structure or form - a site like this could exist equally well in China, Vietnam, or Russia.
# posted by : 8:00 PM
: 8:00 PM
One thousand thanks caryl. It would appear ananymous 2:02 and 1:59pm that we agree on several core issues. Since you provide neither one defense, or any response to the question posed, - we agree that the Bush government has done absolutely NOTHING for Americans in my economic strata. 95% of the populaton.
Yet we divide hard on three basic issues.
First, while domestic policy issues are a dread concern because of the catastrophic FAILURES of this governmen, and the extraordinary largess heaped upon the richest Americans, - it is foriegn policy issues that most concern us for two primary reasons. The policies are catastrophic FAILURES, and even if they were successes, (and there are none) - none of these policies benefit working class or poor Americans. Bush government cronies, cabals, klans, coteries, and oligarchs are reaping obscene fortunes and benefits, but the terrible costs in blood, treasure, and loss of credibility now and in the future heaped upon the American people will haunt and burden our children for decades.
Secondly, the US population is not "fond" of war. This line of mis or disinformed thought is an excuse certain elements of our leadership and the politorati misuse to justify neverendingwar.
People in my circles, and myself in particular are not opposed to war if, - and only if - war is justified as either a response to a legitimate threat against America, or American interests (Afghanistan), - or if the larger humanitarian issue's demand that something be done to thwart an abuse, or threat that decent human beings cannot in good conscience countenance, ie: WWII, Desert Storm, Afghanistan, the Dafur which is tragically being ignored. Yet, the American people are NOT fond of a government intentionally decieving the people, and hurling our daughters and sons to an unnecesary, unjust, and illegal war deceptively sold to the people and singularly profiting select cabals, cronies, and oligarchs in the ruling hunta. Once the spin is unraveled and the American people recognize they have been decieved, - as is the case currently - the support for the war dwindles, rots, and dies.
Lastly, and repeating the point made in an earlier comment - past abuses, deceptions, crimes, and sins are irrelevent and moot. It is the present and the future that all Americans must focus on. Regurgitating US abuses, FAILURES, and genocidal policies is supporting my argument. Are we not learing from our mistakes and the ghoulish crimes of past leadership?
Are we expected to accept and tolerate a government ruthlessly decieving, abusing, betraying, and FAILING the American people, because these crimes have happened before? This is the hieght of hypocracy.
Either we advance as a nation and a civilized society or we don't and then we are doomed to suffer the same cataclymic ends of all the worlds empires.
The America I love and will die defending is better than that. We do not need to stoop to the lowest depths of human depravity and pervert and betray our core principles, nor do we need to dismember and dismantle our democracy, and the Constitution to defeat our jihadist enemies.
You and everyone hear do yourself, and everyone here a great diservice by perpetuating the myth that our foriegn policy has some long-term unknown unknown good, and refusing to recognize or admit to the factbasedreality, that the Bush governments' foreign policies and machinations are catastophic FAILURES, that will haunt, burden, and heap terrible costs on the American people for decades!
"Deliver us from evil!"
By the way, my heart is vigorous, but thanks for your concern.
Post a Comment
Yet we divide hard on three basic issues.
First, while domestic policy issues are a dread concern because of the catastrophic FAILURES of this governmen, and the extraordinary largess heaped upon the richest Americans, - it is foriegn policy issues that most concern us for two primary reasons. The policies are catastrophic FAILURES, and even if they were successes, (and there are none) - none of these policies benefit working class or poor Americans. Bush government cronies, cabals, klans, coteries, and oligarchs are reaping obscene fortunes and benefits, but the terrible costs in blood, treasure, and loss of credibility now and in the future heaped upon the American people will haunt and burden our children for decades.
Secondly, the US population is not "fond" of war. This line of mis or disinformed thought is an excuse certain elements of our leadership and the politorati misuse to justify neverendingwar.
People in my circles, and myself in particular are not opposed to war if, - and only if - war is justified as either a response to a legitimate threat against America, or American interests (Afghanistan), - or if the larger humanitarian issue's demand that something be done to thwart an abuse, or threat that decent human beings cannot in good conscience countenance, ie: WWII, Desert Storm, Afghanistan, the Dafur which is tragically being ignored. Yet, the American people are NOT fond of a government intentionally decieving the people, and hurling our daughters and sons to an unnecesary, unjust, and illegal war deceptively sold to the people and singularly profiting select cabals, cronies, and oligarchs in the ruling hunta. Once the spin is unraveled and the American people recognize they have been decieved, - as is the case currently - the support for the war dwindles, rots, and dies.
Lastly, and repeating the point made in an earlier comment - past abuses, deceptions, crimes, and sins are irrelevent and moot. It is the present and the future that all Americans must focus on. Regurgitating US abuses, FAILURES, and genocidal policies is supporting my argument. Are we not learing from our mistakes and the ghoulish crimes of past leadership?
Are we expected to accept and tolerate a government ruthlessly decieving, abusing, betraying, and FAILING the American people, because these crimes have happened before? This is the hieght of hypocracy.
Either we advance as a nation and a civilized society or we don't and then we are doomed to suffer the same cataclymic ends of all the worlds empires.
The America I love and will die defending is better than that. We do not need to stoop to the lowest depths of human depravity and pervert and betray our core principles, nor do we need to dismember and dismantle our democracy, and the Constitution to defeat our jihadist enemies.
You and everyone hear do yourself, and everyone here a great diservice by perpetuating the myth that our foriegn policy has some long-term unknown unknown good, and refusing to recognize or admit to the factbasedreality, that the Bush governments' foreign policies and machinations are catastophic FAILURES, that will haunt, burden, and heap terrible costs on the American people for decades!
"Deliver us from evil!"
By the way, my heart is vigorous, but thanks for your concern.
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